A split release between Avalanche Recordings and Give/Take, Duskdawn—the latest full-length outing from CARTHAGE, a solo vehicle for U.K.-based experimental industrial lifer Damian B. (khost, 16-17, etc.)—expands on the post-punk/metal characteristics that had started to bubble up amidst 2021's Midnight White. During a recent email exchange in which we were going back-and-forth sharing assorted recommendations, Damian and I decided to shift gears and chat regarding the range of influences and atmospheres behind elements of what the massive 10-song, 72-minute Duskdawn has to offer...
Less than three minutes into opener "Unattainable," it seemed evident that Duskdawn was going to be a bit of a departure (or a new horizon) of sorts for CARTHAGE. 2021's Midnight White touched on a dark post-punk side, but those characteristics feel like more of a driving force herein. The aesthetic is still experimental and leans on an industrial type of edge at times, but it's more restrained and musical as a whole. What types of influences might have been in the back of your mind for this outing?
It's true: Duskdawn was going to be a departure from Midnight White—by default—but I didn't really know how much at the outset. Both albums have similarities in that they both had tracks which I knew were "in place"/always going to be there, and then more evolved later. These later ones came in packs... For Midnight White, those later packs—gangs!—were "Cold Velocity," "Condemned," and "Peril"; and for Duskdawn they were "Wholivesinsideofyou" and "Jetfuel."
Duskdawn has a lot of influences, even if they don't sound overtly like those influences. I love guitar-driven post-hardcore like Converge, La Dispute, post-hardcore/screamo, people like Portraits of Past, Unwound... people who I have endless admiration for. I love ethereal and evocative super hard bands like Holding Absence—countless bands including really commercial bands and artists, country/underground and extreme amounts of alt-country. I love so much really anonymous ambient/degraded atmospheric music that appears online where you have no idea who the artist is.
But there's also twilight post-punk, which is forever to me a total wonder, which I probably go on about too much... like The Durutti Column, [Siouxsie & The] Banshees, Japan, and some of those elements are there in Duskdawn, particularly in the guitar and sax departments.
I also love Cremation Lily and their atmospheres. About atmospheres, there's part of a track—"Intertrans"—at the end where I wanted to really overdrive some euphoric layers of sound—with Daniela's vocals—as much as I could, and it was one of the best parts of doing this record.
Other songs were as "stream of consciousness"' as I could go, to get them down as quick as possible and to actually be as uncomfortable as I could get and to then see what arose, and really having been happy to be in that space.
Back to "Unattainable", the riff was a case of thinking of how someone from a screamo point of view, like Will Killingsworth [Orchid, etc.] or someone like Kurt [Ballou] from Converge may write some frantic, irregular riff, and I just did that riff and recorded it to make it stick. The synths came and then the drums—the latter by accident, as the tempo was never as I intended, but it fit. It ended up being "euphoric"-sounding, but this evolved as I was writing it. The small, "naïve" guitar parts that bookend the track were from a separate piece.
Certain moments almost struck me as Jesu-like in a sense, touching on a sort of ethereal post-metal angle, though it's possible that my mind jumped to such associations simply due to the album having been co-released by Avalanche. We've also talked recently about your interest in Sleep Token and the manners in which they've found acceptance in metal despite some very "unmetal" and almost pop-leaning traits. I don't know if either of these things has filtered into the subconscious of Duskdawn at all, but it seemed worth mentioning...
I do really love how musicians from certain "known" areas/bands—of which "we" have a perception—may suddenly appear differently, in different guises. David Sylvian is like this, and I think about how songs like "Let the Happiness In" just "appeared." I listen to it now and it almost touches on William Basinski territory in mood... I can't explain it. There is this "something." Not that the world of Japan was never "quiet" or introspective, but this. This was a really, really different level. That track—when you listen to the album—then goes onto "Waterfront," which just hangs in there in my mind, and really becomes—as in "manifests"—the world of the song title. They're songs you don't want to actually end.
Also, Ten Songs for Another World by The World of Skin. I couldn't stop playing it when it came out. It hasn't changed one bit, to me. I sometimes wonder if anyone knows of other albums that operate in the same sphere as this, and I sort of doubt there's many. There's huge influences on this, particularly "You'll Never Forget." That song is unbelievable.
I guess I mention these as they filter in, yes, and there's more, and will be more in the future.
I can't say enough: I really love Sleep Token, on so many levels, and that tapestry of sound, the way they communicate... from the first two EPs, and the albums that followed. Bit lost for words here.
On a connected note, and about the era, the similar era that Sleep Token emerged... I felt a change happening in some really amazing ways near the end of the 2010s, with bands like Sectioned, Fawn Limbs, and loads more who were playing at the time what seemed almost "worryingly" intense, uncontrollable, glitchy, metal-fused music which felt it was always spiralling out of control. Trauma Bond are this, too, just such a scope, so, so incredible.
And, over time, bands fusing really beautiful, dense layers, too, the ethereal/hard music mentioned before. I can't get enough of this. Some gets labelled doomgaze, shoegaze, but there are no parameters... If I listen to someone like Loathe, I really don't know what's coming next, for example. I love that.
Duskdawn was to some degree underway when you suffered a radial arm fracture, which I believe resulted in surgery and a hospital stay. Promotional materials for the album indicated that this experience shifted the writing and direction a bit, so can you elaborate on how that ordeal altered the outcome of the material?
The accident really affected things, as up until then I was writing away, then everything changed. I was in plaster but could sort of still make chord shapes for short periods using the hand and arm cranked into a position. Most of this was for "Rain Indoors," but also "Intertrans."
I'd already sketched out riffs and wanted them to be as irregular as possible, with drums following the riffs but also bullying the riffs into coherence—a process which I like a lot. Then lyrics started pouring in, I think mainly as it was such a frustrating and sleepless time. They're all first-take. I just left them as they were.
I haven't seen the physical CD yet and am unsure if it will include lyrics, but many of the vocals are tough to decipher—often placed fairly deep within the holistic density of each composition. What can you share about the lyrical direction of the material?
Lyrically, I like the counterpoint where the more "low" the topic, the more "euphoric" things seem to be, and it can work both ways. "Field of Blue" is very much this. But overall, the lyrics are getting more lucid and focused... even if the subject is a shifting object or topic. I like to record all the attempts! This was very much the case of "Wholivesinsideofyou." I will get lyrics up soon.
It's interesting that you refer to the lyrics as "more lucid and focused" considering that they were crafted amidst sleepless nights and times of frustration, which one might associate with opposite characteristics. What do you think it was about the circumstances that somehow brought a sense of clarity to the lyric-writing?
At the time, I can recall having my notebook open and looking at half-written arrangement notes and lyrics. Even turning on the equipment was a challenge. For "Rain..." especially, it was something that was right there waiting to go, but I had to struggle to focus, which brought frustration, and this led to clarity, because I just got so sick of the physical limitations.
So, I just went for it, and when it was gelling, it became one of the best processes ever. It felt scary, too, as when the break happened, it was a bit scary and I wondered if I'd actually play guitar again, and it led to a five-hour operation. So, I was aware of not pushing too hard, but the songs couldn't have evolved any other way.
The artwork is somewhat comparable to that of Midnight White, but there's something about the graphic design that almost has more of a late-'90s/early-2000s underground ambient/techno aesthetic to it. Tactfully "dated," perhaps (and I like that). Did any particular intention(s) drive the visual style of the album?
That's great! I did know I wanted a duality on the cover to show different phases, so the intention was to split it horizontally. That duality was placed in the videos, too, thus far. I looked at the artwork and was suddenly wanting to add that type of irregular font that appears on the right and side, to add something.
The reason was: I like names/terms you find in industry that are deceptively "simple" or naïve—for example "Caterpillar," while representing heavy, earth-moving equipment—and I thought that in another context, "Duskdawn" could sound like some form of codename for some stealthy, shielded operational programme.
What else are you currently working on? I know khost released a new album last year, but you always seem to be keeping busy with assorted musical outlets...
I've been working on developing the album—along with songs from Midnight White—into live versions, as in what does the live version "look" like? I really enjoy this process a lot. I also was writing all of last year on the CARTHAGE front and this continues, with a lot sketched out significantly. This will be a deluge.
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Duskdawn is digitally available now through Bandcamp, Spotify, Apple Music, and so on. Super limited discs (just 50 copies) will be out next month, and can also be pre-ordered via Bandcamp.
